These forums are locked and archived, but all topics have been migrated to the new forum. You can search for this topic on the new forum: Search for subdomains accounted for domains?? on the new forum.
Web Hosting and Cloud Computing Control Panels
Howdy Filip,
Yes, Virtualmin doesn't care about names--it cares about content. So, sub-servers (and sub-domains, if you've enabled them) count, but alias servers do not.
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
Hmm.. So with my 50 domain license i can only serv 4 clients, as we give 10 sub-domains per client.. (thats 1 + 10, so 11 domains per client) Don't you think thats a bit lame? :-)
Sub-domain does not want to say that it's a complete other website.. Like we use serveral sub-domains for keeping things simple..
We sould work out a manual edit of the configfiles then to make *.domain.com point to http://domain.com/*..
I like virtualmin very much, thats why i paid for it.. But if this is a policy, i'm affraid we will have to search another hostingpanel.. We can never get our $99 out this license that way.. Not if you want to be cheap atleast..
greets,
Filip
Howdy Filip,
If price is the primary concern, we can never compete with our own free product, Virtualmin GPL. ;-)
I'd be curious what control panel is cheaper (while still being competitive with Virtualmin GPL, not to mention Virtualmin Professional) in this context?
Also, it sounds like you're accustomed to the cPanel "subdomain" account type, so you may wish to enable it in the Module Configration "Defaults for new domains" section. The option is labeled "Allow creation of sub-domains?". It's disabled by default, since most folks who aren't coming from cPanel are just baffled by the concept (for one, it conflates the word "subdomain" with an account type, when really, a subdomain is just another name, and for another it puts contents into public_html/subdomain, which is baffling in and of itself).
And, of course, if you do find that this isn't a workable issue for you and upgrading to the 250 domain license isn't an option, we'll be happy to issue a full refund. I'm afraid there's not much we can do about pricing on this one: Different content is what we count, and a sub-server or sub-domain has different content. We never want anyone to feel like they aren't getting great value out of Virtualmin.
<div class='quote'>Not if you want to be cheap atleast..</div>
No, I'm afraid we don't want to be cheap. I hope I've never said or done anything to give you that impression. ;-)
What we do want to be is the most powerful web server control panel in the world, and the best value for the majority of people who need a full-featured web server control panel.
Our free product is, by far, the "cheap" option (I'd hate to be a low end competitor competing with Virtualmin GPL--it's already more powerful than cPanel or Plesk, and for the second tier products, there's not even really any comparison), and we don't want to compete with ourselves.
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
I didn't mean that you should become cheaper. But what i mean is if i want to give a user 10 subdomains, it costs me $25 of the license, i can never get a single client to buy that..
Upgrading the license is of no use, as i would still be botherd by the same problem...
I can understand that you would like to sell as much as you can.. But if i would upgrade here, i'd be better of with a cpanel license.. Even if virtualmin is more powerfull, at least i can make more than 10 subdomains without having to think about my license.. Then it would be cheaper also..
Anyway, gpl is not an option either, as we need reseller functions..
I still cant understand that you would charge a domain for a subdomain that maybe contains only 3 files.. Like we have several..
Maybe you sould try to imagine what it takes to setup a starting hostingcompany with a panel like this. You can not charge clients for every sub-domain they would want to make.. Then they would just go to other hosters cuz the cpanel/plesk hosters give them for free..
But if you want to charge subdomains, then you should add mail.domain.com and ftp.domain.com aswell.. As it's the same thing..
In the end, subdomain or not, the client pays for the space they recieve under there main domain.. So i cant follow your vision on that matter..
I wonder what other virutalmin-users are doing about this sub-domain thing.. IF they even know.. It was by accident i found out so i guess there are more users out there that don't agree with this policy and don't even know it there..
greets,
Filip
<div class='quote'>I can understand that you would like to sell as much as you can.. But if i would upgrade here, i'd be better of with a cpanel license.. Even if virtualmin is more powerfull, at least i can make more than 10 subdomains without having to think about my license.. Then it would be cheaper also..</div>
That's the first time I've heard cPanel referred to as cheaper. ;-)
We offer an unlimited license, as well, just like cPanel...we also offer smaller tiers for folks who don't need unlimited. And, right now, our Unlimited license is cheaper than any cPanel reseller I'm aware of. But, if you prefer cPanel based on them not offering tiered pricing (so you don't have to think about your license), we're happy to issue a refund. ;-)
Sounds like Virtualmin Unlimited is the right license for your needs, and I believe it's cheaper than any individual license of cPanel (bulk pricing, of course, can be gotten cheaper...but if you're buying in bulk, talk to us, and we'll work with you).
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
Cpanel unlimited for 1 year is $425
Your unlimited is normaly $498, at the moment you might be cheaper, but howlong is that going to last.. as you give 50% off right now..
I'll discuss this with our management.. But i fear that i will be back with bad news for you..
ps: if i were you, i'd clearly add that sub-domains are accounted for as a full domain before people by virtualmin! That way they won't get the suprise we just had!
greets,
Filip
<div class='quote'>ps: if i were you, i'd clearly add that sub-domains are accounted for as a full domain before people by virtualmin! </div>
Done. I've modified the shopping cart descriptions to be more explicit, for example, Virtualmin 10 is now described as:
"Virtualmin Professional for up to ten domain virtual servers or domain sub-servers on one system"
Sub-domains have no meaning with regard to accounts in Virtualmin (a sub-domain is just another domain name to Virtualmin, and we don't try to stick additional meaning on top of it), so I'm not using that terminology, but hopefully this makes it clear that any kind of account that has different content counts towards the total. I'll also change the license management tools to make use of the less ambiguous term.
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
<div class='quote'>Cpanel unlimited for 1 year is $425
Your unlimited is normaly $498, at the moment you might be cheaper, but howlong is that going to last.. as you give 50% off right now..</div>
The Early Adopter discount will be around for about another month--I'm close to releasing for FreeBSD, and that's the last Big Promise I made regarding when we'd be ending EA.
As I mentioned, we have no desire to be the "cheap" option. But you've left out Fantastico in your math. We'll still be cheaper than cPanel+Fantastico first year by 27 bucks, and our annual renewal is a third of the cPanel re-up price. Over three years, you'll spend about $700 more on cPanel than Virtualmin Professional, even at our full price. You'll also be getting fewer features and less capabilities for running applications and services for your customers. And I'm not even mentioning all of the extra plugins you have to buy for cPanel to really match what we do right out of the box (comprehensive firewall management, for example, but also our new and getting better website creation tool).
You talk it over with your management, and let me know if you'll be wanting that refund. ;-)
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
Just wanted to point out that if you don't need all of the granular options/extended configurability that go with an actual server/sub-server account then a simple apache rewrite rule can provide a simple "sub-domain" in terms of content presentation (mapping sub.domain.tld to a directory under said domain). Perhaps this is obvious but I hadn't seen any mention of it around.
I realize this doesn't help much as stands in terms of offering clients a simple way to add such "sub-domains", but perhaps someone can be convinced to kick out a module to give it a simple front end. I don't know how hard it would be to make one, but given what the other modules are capable of it I imagine it is a relative walk in the park for someone with the appropriate skills.
Just a thought... ;)
We use virtualmin for hosting and I can understand the concern of FilipVandenBulck. We bump into that "surprise" too.
Of course we use the FREE version so it didn't concern us as much. But now that we are thinking of supporting Pro, it is indeed a point of consideration.
Like it or not many users are spoilt by "unlimited" domain hosting. So it is a valid concern. But as spazzwig mentioned, it is but a rewrite rule, mapping folders to additional domain under an account.
Maybe inadditional to the "TRUE" subdomain and there is "SIMPLE" (for lack of better name) subdomain.
So, the "most powerful web server control panel" may like to consider including this as a feature that silence the comparison with other panel once and for all ;)
I've just started using Virtualmin Pro, and this was indeed something of a surprise, since my original plan was to offer 50 subdomains per user - on a 50 server license, evidently this would be something of a problem.
I think spazzwig's suggestion is the best: have 'simple' sub-domains that just add a CNAME record to the DNS, add a <VirtualHost> directive in the Apache config file for that domain (or perhaps this can be done even without the VirtualHost entry, just using a redirect?), and then setup a folder inside domains/ (or perhaps subdomains/?).
I don't think mail, ftp or anything else would need to be setup; the main use for the subdomain in this case seems to be just an alternative to using folders (i.e., categorising the website content, so forum.domain.com instead of domain.com/forum).
I may look into making this as a simple option on the "Create Virtual Server" page, although I'm not sure if it would count as trying to get around the licensing stuff (I assume that's in the agreement, but I can't find a copy of it on the website).
Wow, As I read this, I wax, biz cult con.
The problem here is the notion of continuing to lower the business competion floor, Trying to offer everything to customers for no cost. In the preceding discussion it's clear that VM will still be less expensive in the long run but you still have to remember that you have an easier to use yet more powerful administrator panel than cpanel and with less of the security woes that come with cpanel. Though bulk liscense discounts would be great, all of this is still a cost of doing business.
It should be a matter of how you set up your offering. Every grocer knows that you offer a gallon of milk for a loss to get them in the store for your other more profitable items. Most won't use your 50 subdomains or the 50 gig, etc and many of the guys we compete with acutally have a weasel clause in the terms of service ( you know, that document that no one ever reads).
Frankly over here we've decided not to try to compete with those who actually may be hosting on pirated hosts in the first place. I could whine that I don't use half of what's offered, so let's streamline it. But that would ruin the panel if it were built just for me, and that's not the point anyway. Joe and Jamie are working hard on an encredible administration panel and deserve the applause of the masses, no need to make it harder for them to do their job.
just my 2 cents
DAn
I agree that most people will never use anywhere near that many, if any at all (and on a more fundamental level, that using forum.example.com instead of example.com/forum isn't really a great idea), but when every other webhost is offering "unlimited subdomains", even if you don't really get unlimited subdomains, even if you don't use them, you can't compete by offering "5 subdomains".
I just tried it out manually, and all that's really needed is the CNAME, a new <VirtualHost> in the apache domain conf file (or a new apache conf file would work just as well), and a subfolder inside the /home/domain.com. That said, I don't know if a bit more would be required to tie it into Virtualmin, such as bandwidth/disk monitoring, etc.
A simple interface to add/edit/delete subdomains and you'd be set.
Still, I can appreciate that this may not be the direction you want Virtualmin to go. Nevertheless, I feel it would be a useful option.
Howdy Random,
It sounds like you need the Virtualmin Unlimited license. It has no virtual server limitations at all, and is priced competitively to cPanel. We have no desire to be the "low cost" control panel...we are building the best control panel, and we have to make a living at it, to be able to do that.
Or, you could write a "braindead sub-domains" module that creates a CNAME and a directive in Apache that points to a subdirectory in public_html. That'd be pretty trivial to write, and we wouldn't have any problem with folks doing that (we'd even answer any questions you might have about writing plugins)--but we aren't going to add more account types to Virtualmin. The UI is already too complicated, as it is (which is why the subdomain type has been hidden by default). Part of being the best is being easier to use and understand. More account types just complicates things. And we also think "subdomains" as cPanel implements them are stupid. ;-)
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
I've looked into it, but for now I can't really justify the cost - I'm only hosting a few clients to offset the costs of the server, as I needed a colocated server for another project.
However, I certainly love what I've seen so far, so if I do find I can justify it, I'll be getting that upgrade license ;D
I can agree with your viewpoint about handling subdomains like that being something of a stupid thing to do, but for whatever reason people like having forum.domain.com, and if the easiest way to do that is just a quick and simple script, I think that'd be the best option for me for now.
Out of interest, I realise this isn't the right place to ask but would anything need to be done to tie the bandwidth monitoring into a subdomain? I'm not sure if perhaps Virtualmin needs to be told the Apache log location or such.
<b>Joe wrote:</b>
<div class='quote'>The Early Adopter discount will be around for about another month--I'm close to releasing for FreeBSD, and that's the last Big Promise I made regarding when we'd be ending EA.
As I mentioned, we have no desire to be the "cheap" option. But you've left out Fantastico in your math. We'll still be cheaper than cPanel+Fantastico first year by 27 bucks, and our annual renewal is a third of the cPanel re-up price. Over three years, you'll spend about $700 more on cPanel than Virtualmin Professional, even at our full price. You'll also be getting fewer features and less capabilities for running applications and services for your customers. And I'm not even mentioning all of the extra plugins you have to buy for cPanel to really match what we do right out of the box (comprehensive firewall management, for example, but also our new and getting better website creation tool).
You talk it over with your management, and let me know if you'll be wanting that refund. ;-)</div>
Hi again Joe,
I know it's been a while, but i only got the management to make a statement regarding this matter yesterday..
They have stated they want to change software because of this matter..
Also thay said it would not be right if you would issue a complete refund. So they request if you decide to refund us, that it would be half the ammount we paid you. As we used the software this long already.
I cant give you an exact date we can transfer our stuff. But it will be this year. So therefor I would already want to request your answer, and get back to you later with a date.
For the people reading this, I would like to state that virtualmin is not bad software! Not at all! But we need them subdomains as cpanel gives them.. Thats the only reason we give up this software!
Greetings,
Filip Van den Bulck
It'd probably be cheaper to just write some code that'l simulate those subdomains, you can just map a subdomain to a folder with two or three lines.
1) DNS record, subdomain.domain.com. IN CNAME domain.com.
2) Apache ServerAlias subdomain.domain.com
3) Apache:
RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^subdomain\.domain\.com$
RewriteRule ^/(.*)$ http://domain\.com/subdomain
Now any request to subdomain.domain.com will load domain.com/subdomain.
Automating this is somewhat harder but I imagine fairly easy; I've not looked into it yet.
By the way, the . characters inside the REGEX should be escaped with a backslash, but the forum software stripped that and I should've probably used code blocks:
[code:1]
RewriteEngine On
RewriteCond %{HTTP_HOST} ^subdomain\.domain\.com$
RewriteRule ^/(.*)$ http://domain\.com/subdomain
[/code:1]
Bear in mind that subdomains really count as full domains, the fact that they're part of another domain isn't relevant to virtualmin, so they have their own db, admins etc.
It's really as though you had domain1.com and domain2.com, only instead you have domain1.com and two.domain1.com.
If all you want subdomains for is mapping forums.domain.com to domain.com/forums, the quick few lines I posted below should work fine.
The last days I was testing many control panel scripts and so I found Virtualmin. But this discussion shows me that Virtualmin Pro is just not affordable for us. We've used PLESK in the past and are looking for an alternaive since PLESK is to expensive too with many domains.
But now we found two quite good but not so expensive panels:
- DirectAdmin (which costs $89 unlimited domains)
- ISPmanager (about $150 with unlimited domains)
I don't really understand why there is such a big gap in price between GPL (free) and Pro (very expensive). In my understanding there should be a "medium" version without some "first class" features just for small companies.
<div class='quote'>I don't really understand why there is such a big gap in price between GPL (free) and Pro (very expensive). In my understanding there should be a "medium" version without some "first class" features just for small companies.</div>
Virtualmin GPL is an Open Source project that we work on for love. Virtualmin Professional adds a number of features that we don't work on for love. We work on them because people wanted to pay us to work on them. ;-)
If price is your biggest priority, I would humbly suggest you compare Virtualmin GPL to DirectAdmin and ISPManager. I suspect we can save you $89 or $150, for unlimited domains. Virtualmin GPL is more powerful, in almost every regard than even our more expensive competitors. And, Virtualmin Professional isn't even in the same category, in my not so humble opinion.
So, I can assure you that we have no plans to reduce the price of Virtualmin Professional. It is very competitively priced with the products we compete with. If you don't need that level of capability, Virtualmin GPL is probably going to be a great fit, and it is beyond competitively priced with the products that <i>it</i> competes with (which are the low end products you've mentioned).
Hope this helps with your plans. We certainly wish you the best with whatever software you choose (and, I've always been told DirectAdmin is a good product, by folks who were moving over to Virtualmin Professional because it provides capabilities not found in DirectAdmin...I've never known anyone using ISPmanager, so I'm wholly unfamiliar with it), and we'll be here to help if you decide to go with Virtualmin GPL or Virtualmin Professional.
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
actually I started with GPL, went to a 10 domain license and upgraded step by step as the demand asked for it. Now I have unlimited license.
the great and important difference between subdomain and subserver is that I can create a sub.server.com with its own login/DB's/dns/mail/ftp etc.etc.
This alone has a sales value as I can sell these sub.servers.com to clients who have no domain name of them selfs (yet).
So i dont see the "complaints" from small companies as I am one myself too. You can even start with the GPL and get some clients on board first before spending money on a lisence. What more does one want?
As for the other panels...I worked with almost all of them but I like life without headache. So I stick with Virtualmin/Webmin
Thanks Ronald,
What kind of headache did you have with DirectAdmin?
I would like to keep it on a more general level to avoid giving other hard working people a bad pun but I tried about 8 or 9 different panels. Variations of annoyances like hard installation, unclear navigation, expensive, buggy, sloppy documentation, slow and/or expensive support and so on.
In the end you pick a piece of software you feel comfortable with in every aspect. When I say every aspect I take into account the developers behind it, their support, the way of communication and the community as well.
Whichever choice you make, just give each panel you try a fair shot at it and decide for yourself with which one you can build and maintain a business.
( Btw I dont know where you got the prices you mentioned for the other panels but I suggest you calculate again :D )
Ronald and Joe,
thanks for your opinions.
I already tested throughly DirectAdmin, ISPmanager and Virtualmin.
From the aspect of installation and user friendly GUI from my experience ISPmanager ist far the best solution. It has a very clear and fast GUI and works very fine.
The only disadvantage so far I see is the fact, it has a very low customer base, the community is very small. The software comes fom a russian hosting company. The only reason why I didn't buy it is what happens if this company just disappears and shut down their license server. From the technical point and usability I give a "AAA" to this software.
The second one is DirectAdmin. It's quite cheap, is well supported, secure, and written in C++. The installation was without any problems. The GUI is clear and user friendly too. DirectAdmin has a really large and helpful community.
I don't know if Virtualmin GPL is really more powerful then the other mentioned solutions. Yes, it is free but it has some restrictions of course.
<div class='quote'>Yes, it is free but it has some restrictions of course.</div>
I don't understand what you mean by "some restrictions". It is Open Source software. There are no restrictions, other than having to abide by the terms of the GPL v2.
--
Check out the forum guidelines!
I am going to be short
I was just about to buy you product until I read this thread I was going to use it to host for a few of my clients mostly for mail and few sub domains if any.
But the fact that you flat out charge for sub domains has me thinking again it will force us small guys to use the GPL not good for you or us.
Thanks
Jim
Even though the thread is slightly older, I figure I'll chip in my 2c's.
Personally, I agree with both sides of the argument. It is really nice to have the ability to have "subdomains" as they are used in other control panels, and not have them count against the limit of sites, saving costs on licensing, -BUT- at the same time, the work that Joe and Jaime have done is completely kick-arse, so I really can't complain about the cost.
I've been using GPL VM, along Plesk on some other systems, for the better part of this year, and finally decided to upgrade to Pro for some of the features not available in GPL (or those that were proving to take too long for me to setup. I'm lazy, what can I say? :-P ).
If you think about the cost of purchasing SWSoft's Plesk CP w/ all the goodies and add-ons required to match Virtualmin's features and services... I can guarantee it's over $2,000.00 USD.
VM is about 12% of that cost, and sure, Cpanel is comparable to Virtualmin in cost and features, but who -really- wants that headache? (I'm biased though, I never liked Cpanel. I have friends who used it, and it was a sheer pain in the rear, nothing but issue after issue, and it ran like crap.)
Anyway, I'll leave my 2c's at that. Joe, Jaime, you guys rock! Keep up the great work! I look forward to seeing the continuing progress you make with each and every version.